In this episode, John James Jacoby and I barely talk about WordPress at all. Instead, I describe as best I can what it’s like to have anxiety and how disabling it can be. John shared his struggles with depression and other feelings over the years which have been linked to caffeine levels.
I go in-depth on why I published a post discussing white male hosts in the WordPress podcasting scene. The issues go far and beyond WordPress. We later discuss a few WordPress-related topics but by and large, John and I needed to get some things off our chest. Oh, and if you have some ideas on how John can monetize his WP User Profiles plugin, let us know in the comments or on Twitter. We’ll be back to our regular programming next week.
Speaker 1 00:00:19 Welcome to episode six of WP mainline for Thursday, August 5th, 2021. I’m your host, Jeff Chandler and joined by the lovely, talented, beautiful John James Jacoby, who was probably thinking to himself. T G I T I’m thinking to myself is that Tuesday is a Thursday. I think it’s
Speaker 2 00:00:40 Thursday have every, every compliment that you give me, I feel like, uh, just you put it on my tab and I owe it. I owe it to you at the end of the year. And, uh, and then I’m like, Hey, Jeff, I can’t afford to pay the compliment tab this year again. So just let it ride. But thank you. It’s good to see you. I mean, here you, uh, I’m glad that we’re recording again. Have I said that yet? It’s always good to, uh, to hear your voice
Speaker 1 00:01:08 There. I think you have, and, and by the way, this week, if you noticed, you know, last week we had 10 can John, this week, you’ve got full bodied. This is what I like to hear,
Speaker 2 00:01:19 John. This is what I like to hear too. A story about last weekend was I listened to it. It was really, it was pretty terrible. So this will be like a redo without Chris, sorry, Chris. But it was a good show last week and this week’s going to be different, though. It sounds like it’s just me. And, you
Speaker 1 00:01:35 Know, so I’m, so I’m looking at my show notes and it’s just a blank page. You know, actually it was a, it was a bit of a rough week for me. I thought, I thought I’d start off by saying, you know, if you, uh, pay attention to me on Twitter and that’s, uh, at Jeffrey, J E F F R zero. Um, you’ll notice that from time to time, I’ll mention that, you know, I’m dealing with anxiety and I’m having a rough time when I’m having a rough go of it. And I thought maybe I’d kind of explain or trying to describe what it is. I mean, when I say that I have anxiety or it’s tough, and for me, it’s like, uh, it’s this feeling of like this, it’s a combination of like nervousness, excitement. It’s weird because you know, I, I, I spend the day, sometimes I spend the day with this anxiety.
Speaker 1 00:02:27 It’s like, um, actually it’s kind of hard to describe, I guess, now that I’m thinking about it and talking about it, but it’s, uh, what ends up happening is I spend time and energy and focus on trying to remain calm, trying to remain even keel because what what’s, what wants to happen is my heart rate wants to increase, which provides labored breathing. And then if it escalates beyond that my blood pressure rises, then I get all hot and bothered and sweaty and, you know, don’t get too excited there, John, this is not the good kind. And, uh, and, and, um, you know, it becomes, it becomes a hot mess and it’s, it’s terrible. And I ended up, you know, for the in it’s, it’s weird. Like I actually had to cancel a couple of interviews that I had scheduled for this week because the anxiety I spent so much time focusing on that and trying to remain even keel, that it becomes disabling.
Speaker 1 00:03:29 You know, it disables me from being able to do what I want to do because I can’t sit here. I can’t focus on other things I can’t write. I can’t, I can’t concentrate on what I need to get done to get done, because I’m so focused on just being an even keel concentrating on my breathing. I’m like, I’m really focused on like how my heart feels, how it’s beating. It’s a beating too fast. I’ll know I need to calm down and take a deep breath. You know? And I actually, uh, what I ended up doing is like the Vicks vapor rub. No, you’re supposed to use that during the winter time when you’re sick, I kind of helps you. It just has this nice cooling sensation. I ended up putting some of that around the naturals, my nose. And what happens is that cooling effect.
Speaker 1 00:04:11 It opens it up. It makes it easier for me to breathe and actually helps me during these times of dealing with like higher anxiety. It actually eases the whole breathing processing. It’s kind of weird. It’s I have this anxiety issue. And, you know, sometimes I’m wondering, you know, is it really just, maybe I have a cardiovascular problem? You know, maybe, maybe I have a breathing problem. Maybe, maybe there’s something going on there, but, um, I I’d become, so self-conscious about the breathing and everything. And sometimes when I take a deep breath or I’m trying to breathe, and it doesn’t, it doesn’t work as smoothly. Or I feel like I’m struggling that right there could set a chain of events in motion where I start painting. Definitely. And then I got to go take the medicine and calm down again. And I don’t know what’s going on.
Speaker 1 00:04:57 I 2019 me fine didn’t have any problems whatsoever get through 20, 20, 20 20 is when I had my first, what I believe to be anxiety attack. I had to go to the emergency room, never went inside, but found out that it was pretty much a genuine anxiety attack. And a lot of heart attack is actually are misdiagnosed, or I should say anxiety attacks or misdiagnosed as heart attacks because they generally have the same symptoms, but now 2021 meet, it’s like just, it’s just a struggle for me now to go out, to drive, to muster up the, the, the abilities to do things that I used to do, but it it’s just become so much more difficult. And, you know, it’s, it’s sucks for my wife because she can’t help me. She says, you know, what can I do to help you? And I said, there is nothing you can do to help me. And she’s in the ended up having to do a lot of things by herself. Like I can’t go out with her and do things as much as I used to. It’s a, it’s a real pain in the ass. I’m still trying to right now, 2021 me is just at the point of living with it, learning to cope with it, learning to deal with it, learning to do what I can with it. And it’s just a pain in the ass.
Speaker 2 00:06:16 It’s um, your, I mean, I think we should preface most of what we’re talking about here with like the obvious disclaimer that we are not healthcare professionals and that we’re trying to figure it out. Right. And so I think you’re doing what is like a very natural and normal thing for most people to do is you’re you’re self-medicating frankly. And, uh, for some people that’s a, there’s a history of addiction and there’s, um, uh, my family history has some of that, and you’re just using Vicks vapor rub on your nostrils for an hour. Right. So it’s, you’re, you’re trying different things to find comfort. And that’s, I think a very normal sort of thing to try, but like what your, what you’re experiencing is a chronic condition. And I think that, that like the, the, the value of seeing, uh, professionals, just like, uh, software developers or designers or UX folks, and everyone else is a healthcare professional or a mental health professional helps put a, uh, uh, an accurate name on some of the things that you’re experiencing. And from that point, you can kind of more, uh, you can, you have a better chance of, of reacting to the things that you’re experiencing in a healthy and positive way instead of, uh, yeah. I don’t want to become some pill pusher with me. Um, I mean then my family has a history of addiction and anxiety and all of those things. And so, like, I feel like I can relate in a lot of ways, but yeah. Yeah. My
Speaker 1 00:07:56 Mom was actually, my parents were in town from Utah last weekend and man, it was awesome. Getting able to hug them and see them after two years because of this whole pandemic. And I was cooking food for them, but my mom’s she’s been dealing with anxiety for a long time. She says, it’s a, uh, heretical. Is that where it was there? Hereditary, hereditary that’s right, correct. I’m making up new words on the show, but she says it runs in the family, but it’s never been an issue for me until last year and this year. And I think a lot
Speaker 2 00:08:27 To do with it. I think it did too. I think. And the isolation for a lot of folks is new and is not a thing that they’re comfortable with. I’ve
Speaker 1 00:08:34 Been reading articles where like people going through the pandemic, it’s actually rewired their brain. I’m sure. And that’s caused a lot of the anxiety and stuff. And what happens is you have to go through some processes which may maybe talking to mental health providers and healthcare providers would help with that or a therapist probably. And you had, you have to like decouple those neuron connections and rewire your brain to like pre pandemic levels.
Speaker 2 00:08:59 Well, I think like we are, we are realizing that, like saying it out loud, confessing these things to the world, to your friends, to listeners in a podcast like this, like there is, there was a version of therapy that, uh, that, that this, this helps you, right? Like sharing your feelings, saying them out loud is helpful, but like to different unique people. Cause you’re gonna, you know, you’re going to get a different response than maybe the friends that you have that you’re close to or the people that you live with or your family or whoever else. And so, um, that’s, I think like talking about it with our listeners like this, uh, his is its own version of a therapy for folks like perhaps you and, and maybe me where you get to share some experiences with, uh, with people that maybe don’t know you that way or that don’t think of you that way. Or as a, instead of just being a radio personality that they’re happy to tune into, you get a little bit of the, the human side, which is, uh, you know, we’re all, we’re all trying to figure it out as we go and doing our best. So I think episodes like this are, are good in our, in our pre-show you
Speaker 1 00:10:11 Listening to talking to John that’s, that’s my therapy.
Speaker 2 00:10:16 You make me feel uncomfortable, awkward, awkward advances in my general direction is my therapy. Jeff. I really appreciate it. It makes me, makes me feel important and valued. But like we were talking about in the, uh, in our, in our pre-show back and forth is like when, when every time I go to the doctor, when I go for whatever it is I’m going for, uh, and they, they part of part of what my, my general practitioner does now, which I’m still assuming that they’ve done for a very long time, uh, is they ask you a bunch of questions to try and gauge effectively whether or not you are suffering from depression. And, um, and, and every time I basically fail this test with like flying, flying, terrible black and white colors, like I’ve made the doctor says, yeah, you are, you’re definitely suffering from depression. I’m like, I know, but that’s the world. This is depressing. Well,
Speaker 1 00:11:11 I guess that explains your story
Speaker 2 00:11:15 Since you brought it up, right? Like that’s a, it is a thing that like I’ve probably had for a long time. Uh, but I, I don’t know how to, how to, how to get out of it. So when you’re talking about, or whether or not I’m even capable of getting out of it, and I’m part of it for me, I can kind of pinpoint some things. Um, but like the, the, the most annoying things for me about like the things that make me feel the most down, uh, aside from just like the state of the world and everything being on fire, everything being underwater at the same time, uh, and just like human suffering and mass hysteria just is depressing and by itself. But like, part of it for me is like, I think it was probably 2009 or 10. And, um, that I had an, I had an ear infection that is sort of left my right ear sort of feeling like it’s got weird pressure in it all the time.
Speaker 2 00:12:15 And so, like, it kind of just bothers me no matter what I do, it doesn’t really hurt, but it’s kind of just always there. And so after a while, I kinda just wish it would stop, but it doesn’t. And then I think we’ve talked about in previous shows, like, uh, and we we’ve talked about with, uh, with mark benzocaine before, but like, and he he’s him and I have talked about it pretty deeply, but like the daily, chronic headaches and migraines. Oh yeah. Um, like the, I, they, I just feel like a different person because of them. And they, uh, they kind of ruin everything. And so having gone down the rabbit hole of a bunch of different medications, and again, experimenting with a bunch of different things to try and figure them out and tune them and do this, that, and the other thing with them, like it’s exhausting and it’s expensive and it is too pressing by itself because no one, no one seems to really be able to answer any questions about any of the, and these sort of, uh, there’s a stigma behind doing your own internet research and trying to figure out what it is that you may or may not be suffering from, because the integrity of the data there is, is questionable.
Speaker 2 00:13:38 And so with any chronic condition, I don’t care if it’s headaches or if it’s anxiety or if it’s arthritis or if it’s whatever, whatever it is, uh, we use it. Most of these kinds of things are not, they impact everyone around you and you, you cannot get out of them on your own and the people around you cannot get, they can’t, they can’t really help you. And so it, you, you know, that your sort of bringing everyone down around you, that’s not a good feeling. And so then it’s just sort of perpetually, uh, uh, negative. And, uh, and, and the pro ultimately like all of this is to say that, like, I’ve, I’m, I’m fairly confident that like the only real solution is just like getting up off your butt and like going for a walk or a run and just like eating better and being healthier.
Speaker 2 00:14:37 And then all of a sudden, most of that stuff will probably, it’ll probably sort of repair itself over a long enough period of time, but like the abyss that you are stuck in, uh, sort of makes that impossible, like the physical pain, the, the emotional anxiety of it, all the, the, every, every ache or pain that you feel, or that comes through. There’s just so many, so many things that prevent you from doing the thing that you need to do to fix the problem. And all of the things that your body tells you, you need to do like rest and go to bed and stop thinking about it and take some deep breaths. Like they almost make it worse. So you sleep too much. You, uh, you, uh, you’re, you’re, you’re you think about things too much, you do too much research instead of just taking up a shelf,
Speaker 1 00:15:32 I think every little ache or pain in your chest areas.
Speaker 2 00:15:36 That’s true. That’s true. Like, and that was one of the things with, with my headache meds was, uh, they, the side effects were, uh, they were, they were almost, all of them were worse than the headache. And so, uh, it was like, well, I guess I just, and it’s come up a lot because of COVID and because of the side effects of, of COVID and, uh, and is that is the brain fog, the brain fog of it. Um, and my headaches started years ago. Uh, and so, and I’ve, I went through, I tried to self-medicate with them. I’ve tried everything else that everyone else would dry. And, uh, and, but the there’s actually
Speaker 1 00:16:21 Quite a bit of research, just come out recently about people who have, who have had COVID or dealing with long COVID that brain fog is absolutely one of the common things that people are going through. Like COVID has, is, uh, significantly affecting the, uh, the brain,
Speaker 2 00:16:44 The brain fog, the way the brain is wired. And, and for me, and we’ve, we’ve talked about it on the show and it’s, um, it’s sort of feels very stupid to bring up and Carrie’s heard me bring it up a thousand times. And so I’m a little bit of a broken record to her. And then mark, who I’ve mentioned earlier, but, um, the brain fog for me is almost like, is like 99% connected to like my intake of caffeine. Like almost, almost completely. And so, like, I
Speaker 1 00:17:19 Stay away from sparkling water.
Speaker 2 00:17:22 Well, and so, like it, uh, there’s, there’s like a, there’s like a joke from John Malaney who I’m gonna, I’m going to butcher it. But the punchline is like that he went through all of college, like not drinking water, you know, like he went years just having like beer or alcohol and like, didn’t have any water. And like, but like when I, if I sit and like, if I chug a thing, a water, like water by itself gives me a, and like, it doesn’t make any sense. And so, uh, so the, the brain fog for me, uh, like I feel it’s like a, it’s like a confession, but like, I’m like, my body physiologically is just completely addicted to caffeine in a way where, like, my operating window is very tight. Like I CA I can very easily have too much of it or not enough of it.
Speaker 2 00:18:18 And the side effects for both are kind of the same where, like, I just feel ill and like, I need to lie down and I can’t concentrate and I have a terrible time, but if I don’t have any caffeine at all, and I went probably the past, not I went most of 20, 20, and most of 2019, like, oh, like probably almost all of, both of those of those years, like zero caffeine, like almost zero, probably legitimately, no caffeine at all, in anything like the chocolate, like avoided it as much as it was it possible to avoid it. And like, felt like death, like every day, like, couldn’t think like, like always lethargic, like, just get
Speaker 1 00:19:06 To the point where you said, well, I tried it for two years going back to the cancer.
Speaker 2 00:19:10 And so what happened was, uh, there’s a, there’s a group of friends that I’ve got that, uh, are like in real life friends that are not WordPress folks that, um, that we go and we get our haircut once a month together, and then we have lunch. And so, uh, we went to this Thai place and, uh, my two friends ordered some Thai tea and I was like, oh, no, it’s amazing. Has, is like, then they were like, dude, it’s so good. You have to try this Thai tea. And I look, and it’s like, it’s, it’s black tea and spices. And so it was relatively high caffeine content and it’s super sweet and super sugary. And I was like, okay. I mean, I’m with friends and we’re celebrating, so it’s been two years. I’m done. I’m fine. Well, I’ll try to tie tea. And so, uh, you know, have it have, have lunch eat.
Speaker 2 00:20:00 And then like within minutes of like driving home, not like I didn’t have the like, rush of being jacked on caffeine. I just felt normal. Like for the first time in years where I was like, well, this is really embarrassing that like, I’m basically an addict and my drug is caffeine and I, and I need it in order to function like a normal person. And so I was like, okay, well now I can, I can kind of confirm for like my like soft squishy body that like, it needs this thing in it in order to get the job done. And so, uh, like I started drinking caffeine again, but I did what everyone does. Like you talked is like, I started drinking coffee and I was in the coffee. I have problems with the acidity of most coffee. And so, yeah, I get the caffeine effect, but then I feel like gross, like, you know, like, like acid refluxy and just like not, not comfortable with coffee. And then
Speaker 1 00:21:04 Yeah, with me, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve tried to cut out as much caffeine as I can, except for the only really caffeinated drinks I can drink now is for some reason, Coke Coca-Cola, which I drink has caffeine in it, but it’s not, it’s like 20, 20 or 30 milligrams and a can or something to that effect, which is weird. I’ve, I’ve, I’ve at one point I had like one of those little bottles of Dr. Pepper and I have 33 milligrams of caffeine per bottle. And like soon after I had that Dr. Pepper, I started having feelings of all, no panic anxiety attack. Cause it jacks up the heart rate and everything. So, but what Coca-Cola, I’m fine. So I don’t
Speaker 2 00:21:47 Know. I feel like I tell you what,
Speaker 1 00:21:50 I haven’t had a mountain Dew in three years, like two years.
Speaker 2 00:21:54 It was what I went to because I, I, I went to regular old mountain Dew because the darker Cola’s and sodas, uh, seem to attribute a headache trigger for me. And so if it’s the coloring or the, whatever it is, caramel food coloring. And so the like mountain Dew, like yeah, like even like a root beer, would it give me a headache? And so, so I stick away, stay away from the darker stark, darker colored, fake sort of sodas, but there’s so much sugar and caffeine and a mountain Dew that like, I don’t drink. I don’t like chug them. I would basically sip on a, like a half a can a day or something. Like, I wouldn’t even really be drinking that much. Um, um, and like some days if I’m really thirsty or like, sure, maybe I’d have have more than one, but it was, it’s never, it’s never been like a high volume amount of it.
Speaker 2 00:22:42 But long story short is, uh, is now I’ve settled on matcha, which like matcha teas, mostly just green tea all ground up and put it in some oat milk or something. And, uh, and like, I, now I feel like I can, I’m learning how to tune it, or I can measure it out. I can, I can take, I can control the dosage. I can time it so that I can keep track of when I’m not feeling well and whether or not I’m going to need some more. Uh, but I feel like it’s also variable like it, where you can track it a million times and then have a diary of your life for 20 years trying to figure out the ups and downs and the pros and cons of it. But so much of it is based on your metabolism, how much activity you had in the day and the weather and the humidity.
Speaker 2 00:23:30 And like, it sounds like it’s enough to give you anxiety if you don’t already have it. Right. Like, and so I think that my, my, my tie back for this long dumb story is like, I feel like, like it’s all sort of connect. Like I like this one. It’s just my anxiety. My hereditary anxiety is manifesting yeah. Itself through its addiction to caffeine. That’s like, instead of being like afraid to go outside or afraid to get stuff done or, uh, afraid of confrontation or like whatever, I keep using the word afraid, but I don’t mean the phrase in general or just like, instead of those things, uh, I’m, I’m choosing to focus on like the one thing that I can control that, uh, is making me feel bad that I feel that that will return some positive results if I get it right. And so I think like anxiety and the world right now, and isolation for folks that aren’t used to being isolated and, uh, uncertainty of the direction that a company that you work for might go, or the job that you have or, um, everything.
Speaker 2 00:24:48 Right. I mean, there’s just so much in our world, but also just sort of hyper-focused in our industry of WordPress that, um, that there, there is to choose to be anxious about. And I think that that’s like some, some of this, even though it’s easier said than done, like part of it is sort of a choice. Like you kind of have to make the choice to look at things positively, even when it sucks. I know, like, and everyone knows it sucks that like that. I think that there are many people that can just choose to be positive about it or have it not bother them. And I am not one of those people. And so I think that’s where I get the reputation of like being disruptive or being, being against the grain or whatever else, or in general, just being negative and ER, and depressed about all these things is like, uh, it is, it is, I don’t have that in may.
Speaker 2 00:25:46 Like I don’t have that muscle in my body to flex to be like, Hey, it’s this sucks. And it’s going to be okay. Instead it is like, this sucks and we all know why it sucks and we can, we can make it better. Like it sucks because we made it suck and we can just make it not suck. Uh, and so it’s more or less. It was just like, like, I just want mommy and daddy to stop fighting. I just want to fix the problem so that we can move on to fixing other better, different, more important things. Or like, like get, get, like, I want to resolve all, like, we can point at the problem here. Like, like I can point at my headaches, but I can’t fix them because I’m not qualified, but for issues with WordPress or Gutenberg or business issues or marketing issues, like these are things that I’ve experienced with that.
Speaker 2 00:26:41 I feel like I comprehend fairly, but like I can point out and say like, we can fix these problems with one another. But then the problem Gary Pendergast had tweeted about which we went back and forth on a little bit is like, when your, when you’re not positive, when you have a perception in the world of being negative or disruption or disruptive, or being hard to work with, is it, is it instantly discredits you? And it instantly makes everyone around you on edge or cautious or uncomfortable to work with you, whether or not you are right or wrong. And so it is, it is better, is easier to like to be well-liked and popular and S and B not good. Like you’re better off being bad at what you do and having people like you than, uh, than like being amazing at it. And, uh, and having like, like, it’s like one of the Linux philosophies I’ve talked about before, like it’s gotta be popular before. It’s good. Uh, and somehow there’s like a paradox there, but like, uh, WordPress got popular before it was very good. And, um, and like anything, right? Like slack and everything else
Speaker 1 00:28:07 In 20 20, 29 minutes into the show. We, we finally mentioned the word word. I’m trying to bring it back. I’m doing that. I’m doing my best. You mentioned this pandemic. I got to tell you this, this time, last year, I’m in full lockdown. I’m scared. I don’t. I stopped watching the news and stop watching the headlines, all of that crap because I started in it. And then I, you know, I was hyper-focused on, on my, can I still smell stuff? Can I still taste things? You know, I don’t want to get COVID no matter what, I’m not going outside, stay away from me, people. I mean, I was already kind of social distancing as it was, but, you know, not everybody had to do it, but, but, you know, last year we had no vaccines. We’re locked down and we’re wondering, when are we going to get vaccines?
Speaker 1 00:28:52 How soon is there going to be? I can’t wait to get the vaccine and I can’t wait to get back to normal. Well, here we are like a year later. And by golly, it seems like we’re way worse off now than we were last year. And we have vaccines. I mean, you’ve got the Delta variant, you’ve got people who are, who are attending parties, where everybody at the party is vaccinated, but yet, you know, 11 out of 15 of them get COVID and you’ve got these breakthrough variants that are going on. You’ve got, you’ve got the unvaccinated who for whatever reason, pick any number of the stupid reasons or whatever beliefs that they have, you know, the you’ve got the unvaccinated, you’ve got the vaccinated, you’ve got vaccinated who is getting a symptomatic symptoms, or, you know, they, they, they can spread. COVID so much the Delta variant so much more easily than the regular way.
Speaker 1 00:29:45 I mean, it’s just, it’s just crazy. And it feels like we’re about to get into lockdown status, getting, I know here, I know with my wife’s employment, the, at the grocery store, they finally just now said, that’s, it may ask her going back on for, uh, for, for the workers I’ve already started. I’m putting the mask back on. I just look to me. I just don’t wanna get sick. I hate being when I have a cold, I hate the cold. I hate the sniffles. I hate just being sick in general. I definitely don’t want to have anything to do with COVID if I can help it. But I just, man, you know, we’re just talking about around this time, my steer Sturgis, you know, they had this huge motorcycle rally and there was a live webcam there at this point last year. And it was like, it was like, as if COVID wasn’t even a thing, there were thousands of people that descended upon Sturgis, South Dakota, and guess what?
Speaker 1 00:30:34 They’re on their way up there to do it again this year. And it’s even worse than last year, but man, I just, uh, it just feels like, and then, and then you’ve got, you’ve got west of the Rockies is a Tinder box. They’re dry, everything’s burning, uh, east of the Rockies. You’ve got a bunch of, you know, it won’t stop raining. Uh, you’ve got, I don’t want to go into it because then everything that we’ve talked about that you can think about just re rises anxiety levels. But, uh, it just feels like there’s so much worse. I feel like we should be better. We should be at a point it’s disappointing to me because as a society, as a human race, as people of this country, and as part of the world, this could have been dealt with, it could be so much, uh, less worse than it is. Had. We all done the responsible thing when we could. And that’s, uh, in, in it’s at all levels of government and individual personal responsibility,
Speaker 2 00:31:36 Well, that’s like, that’s sort of how I feel. And
Speaker 1 00:31:39 When you start thinking about all that, it’s like, oh no, I’m getting depressed. And again,
Speaker 2 00:31:43 Well, it is, that’s exactly right. Like that’s, that’s what depresses be about. Not just COVID you hit the nail on the head, not just with COVID, but with like, with everything with WordPress or local government or national government or the world economy, like if more of us were more involved and more of us participated in the discussion that was happening, then I maybe, maybe in theory of the things would be different or better.
Speaker 1 00:32:25 If you would have won the election for Easter, there would be no COVID there. I just know it.
Speaker 2 00:32:31 That is, that is the promise that I would make to my people that you had a hundred percent. No, but like the, the, uh, the, one of the, like, I I’ve said this before and to real life people, but like the, there are a lot of people that don’t participate in local government related things because they have businesses locally. They have kids locally to go to school that have friends that have relationships and play sports together. And like their whole lives are part of their community. And so there is significant risk and them sharing their opinions on, on, on anything because people will stop going to their business. They will ruin their friendships with their, their, that their kids have. They will, uh, they will get kicked out of sports and stuff because like they’re their whole life and livelihood. Their mortgage payment revolves around like maintaining relationships in their local community.
Speaker 2 00:33:39 And so, because Carrie and I don’t have kids because my business doesn’t revolve around my local community, because this is a place that I care about and where I’m from. I kind of feel like I have an obligation to participate in the tough dialogue and discussion that like for the people that I know privately, that would say things if they could. And so not that I am like, I am willing to say and, and speak for people that are comfortable with me doing so, even if it’s an opinion that I do not personally agree with, because I think that like all of these opinions and perspectives are important and it is the culmination of all of them that we mash up in together. And we, we turn into a soup and then we come out with something in the middle that sort of works for everyone.
Speaker 2 00:34:28 And when folks don’t speak up and because they’re afraid because it’s unsafe because it is risky because of physical, mental, psychological harm that could happen from speaking up with their opinions, they just, don’t, it’s easier. It’s safer not to participate in those conversations. And I don’t care if we’re talking about COVID or sexism or racism or a money laundering or the Bitcoin or whatever, like all everyone’s sort of perspectives on everything that is going on are the things that changed the direction and shape where it is that we should and could go. And by saying nothing at all, uh, that guarantees that that will your voice, what your opinions, what you want to happen will not happen. It guarantees it. And so if we all participated, if we all took more care and having these kinds of conversations, we may be, would be in a better, healthier sort of place. Um, I don’t know, maybe I’m wrong, but that’s sort just how I feel about
Speaker 1 00:35:37 It. And I don’t, I don’t, I don’t think you’re wrong. I think one of the tough conversations that we speak of whether it’s COVID or whatnot is, uh, how many white males are allowed to podcast in the WordPress space. I mean, I mentioned this last week that we’re going to talk about it, and I guess, I guess today’s good a time as ever to, well, what happened was a mentioned an idea that I wanted to start another podcast that featured casual conversations and interviews. I kind of wanted to separate it out from the show and, uh, the interviews that I did for WordPress weekly, where some of the best things I think that I ever did on that show. And, you know, you get to learn a lot about somebody and what this would allow me to do with just, just to have those interviews have casual conversations.
Speaker 1 00:36:27 And I can ask the different questions that I usually ask, you know, the weird ones and, you know, we can get away, we can have a good time, I can get away with it. But so I put this idea down on Twitter and, uh, Jason Casper reached out to me and said, you know, he’s, he’s had a similar idea for a podcast. He’s just looking for kind of the right format and the right people to do it. And he said, but before you create that podcasts, ask yourself, do we need another white male hosting a WordPress podcast, uh, in, in the, in the space? And if the, you know, no, maybe we should think about that. The answer shouldn’t be, you know, no, you know, if the answer’s no, then, you know, maybe you should leave that space open for someone else. So I actually thought about what he said, it struck a number of chords with me.
Speaker 1 00:37:18 And so I sat there and I thought about it for one an hour, hour and a half, let things ruminate in my head. And then I said, I have to get things out of my head and participate in a difficult conversation. So I wrote up a post about my thoughts and feelings of being a white male and doing a podcast. And there’s a lot of things to kind of unpack here. But the bottom line is a, I feel like, and I’ve actually received private comments from people saying, you know, Hey, nice job on the post. And I’m glad you wrote what you did. I can never get away with writing. Something like that, no matter how nuanced and I had trust me, I had butterflies in my stomach before I hit the postpartum. But, um, the WordPress space is the ecosystem. The market share everything is large enough and spread out enough across the world to the point where having there should not be a limitation on podcast hosts in the WordPress space based on color and nationality, just because, you know, there’s 10, 11, 12, 15 other WordPress podcasts out there that are produced and host by a white male.
Speaker 1 00:38:32 Doesn’t mean there can’t be a 16th or 17th at that’s what they’re passionate about, and that’s what they want to do. And that’s what they want to try and make a living doing. Why should they be prevented from doing it because they’re a white male? It makes no sense. It’s that? I mean, come on. What’s, what’s the big deal. Now I say that with the realization that white males dominate a lot of spaces that you’ll see them in tech, you’ll see them in very high roles and companies they’re everywhere. And it is a problem. There, there needs to be more females, more female representation. It needs to be more females and, uh, underrepresented groups of people in position of positions of power in companies. And just there needs to be more representation, inclusivity, diversity throughout all fields of tech, just throughout all fields of life.
Speaker 1 00:39:28 And I’m acutely aware of that. I’m acutely aware of my position and, and what I’m doing here on this show with, with John and with, uh, with Malcolm to other white males that are part of the podcast, but I enjoy doing the show. I enjoy having them as my co-host and this is I’m going to do this. I’m going to do the show my way. So I’ve, I’ve decided that I’m going to go ahead and do that. Show the podcast, because I want to do it. I want to try and make a living doing it. I’m interested in doing it. I’m good at it. And there should be no artificial limitation and whether I can do it or not based on and being white and to take this a little step further, you know, I, I listen to am talk radio and I was listening to the radio host yesterday, and he made a point to the fact that it’s gotten.
Speaker 1 00:40:14 And I kind of agree with him. I it’s gotten to the point now where if you’re, if you’re white and I think this goes for females and males, I think particularly males, but if you’re white, you are now the enemy. You’re just, just because you’re white. Uh, that that’s, it you’re a bad person. You’re, you’re part of, you’re part of the reality that we’re in now, whether it’s good or bad, but it’s just like, and I’m thinking, you know what? It, wasn’t my choice. I didn’t choose my skin color. I, I, I’m just trying to make a living. I’m trying to get by. I’m trying to do what I think so many of us are trying to do, and let’s get by make a living, have a sustainable life. And to me, race and color. I mean, I’m not even thinking that none of that even matters to me.
Speaker 1 00:41:01 And I’m just trying, I’m just trying to get by. But, but for me to be, I understand the, the, the, the white privilege and all that stuff, I’m acutely aware of what’s going on in society, in certain aspects of it. And, uh, I feel like for me, the best way I can help and be a part of that is to build a platform, build it as high as I can with this show, with the other show, with WP mainline, and then elevate other voices when possible. And that’s really, to me, the best way I feel I can, I could participate in being an ally and help others and be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.
Speaker 2 00:41:39 I mean, in, in it, it’s probably not a surprise, but in general, I think I mostly agree with you. Like, yeah. Wonder why. I mean, that looks, that was sort of
Speaker 1 00:41:54 Wow. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:41:56 But it’s, uh, it’s like, it it’s good intentions for, um, Casper. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:42:09 And I, and I, and I’m, I’m not, I’m not saying what he brought up. I’m not saying what he brought up was wrong. He makes an excellent point. That made me think, and he’s right. I mean, in some aspects, but in other aspects, when I think about it, it’s like, but I’m not the bad guy. I don’t want to be the bad guy. This is what I enjoy doing. This is what I can make a living doing. I’m good. Why can’t I do it?
Speaker 2 00:42:36 I think w I think one of the things that the, that, that we probably have in common, you, you and I, and, um, and, and I would, I would, I can imagine people that, that I know listened to the show that, that are, I, I would, I would categorize similarly, is that, uh, like I know I have a hard time understanding the, the way that other people perceive me, like I, and, and, and what influence or power or scope that I may or may not have. And like, so, uh, I guess a good example of that is like, like, there are people that I’ve known in WordPress for a very long time that like, I would consider to be like, we are friends, but at the same time, we have hung out in person for so long, or, or that many times at all, where I, I don’t really know how close of friends that we are or how, how valued that those relationships are, are supposed to be.
Speaker 2 00:43:45 And so I, I have a hard time knowing if what I’m saying or what I tweet or what I would blog about is truly resonating or, or being understood in the way that I intended for it to be. And, uh, and, and that, what that means is like in person, uh, it was like, I, I am, I am the first person to admit that, like, this, my social awkwardness mostly just comes from, like, I don’t know where we are. I don’t know where our relationship is. The same thing with like our neighbors in the neighborhood. Like as a people we we’ve lived next to for two years, and we’ve gotten to know, but I feel like every time we hang out that it’s kind of the first time that we’re hanging out, because we really like enjoy each other’s company and time. And like, it’s all good cell phone, and it’s all a good time, but we don’t, we don’t really know each other that well, even though we’re like comfortable with one another.
Speaker 2 00:44:45 And so all of that, again, is the tangentially to say that, like, when it comes to us, like deciding whether or not we’re going to be, uh, like we’re going to be, uh, like whether or not we should have a show or not have a show, whether or not we should use our influence to try and level people up or not, or whether or not we’re being, and we’re in the way by having a show, it’s speaking our minds and that, that is going to, uh, prevent other people from doing so in a similar way. Like, I don’t, I don’t think that those things are true, but they might be true. And if they are, then I am not the right person to identify that. Like, I would be the first person. I’d probably screw that up. If that makes sense. Like maybe what we’re doing is actually unhelpful.
Speaker 2 00:45:33 Maybe it is, maybe it is hurtful to some people somehow. Um, but I don’t think that it is, but it’s just like, when you’re like, when you, when you bring up the am radio station, you’re listening to any of these things is like, it is so easy to unintentionally oppress other people. Like it happens it’s happening when someone says, I agree with that, that it happens when someone says that maybe you shouldn’t do something because of your race or sex or a background or anything like the second that you say, and maybe, maybe this isn’t for you, you are unintentionally oppressing someone in order
Speaker 1 00:46:20 To lift up others, you yourself have to be oppressed.
Speaker 2 00:46:23 And so it is the, are you and I in a position to, are we the best people to level people up? And part of me thinks like that I’m not right. Like I’m not. And like, and so it, my demographic of a married white guy with no kids means I don’t have a lot of like non white guy friends. And that’s not because I don’t and I live in Wisconsin. Right. So, like, there’s not, there’s not a lot of opportunity for diversity in general, but like, I don’t, like, I don’t want to be the creepy neighbor guy who trying to like, be friends with the neighborhood children. I don’t want to like, be too chummy with like my, like the neighborhood, like the, the husbands and the wives. And like, like, it just, there’s not a lot of opportunity to like, to make like friends that aren’t just like dumb white dudes that are comfortable making each other feel uncomfortable and, and stuff like you and I to Jeff like it.
Speaker 2 00:47:37 So it, if, if this was, um, if, if like, if I was a different person that had different background with, in a different location, with different exposure and different, whatever that may be, my relationships would be different and I could organically more easily bring in other people that weren’t just white guys, but that’s not who I am right now. Like maybe it was a long time ago and maybe it will be in the future. But today, most of the people that I know and talk to just happened to be those people. And so like, like whether or not it makes a difference or matters or not, I feel like you and I have always tried and done a good job of advertising the fact that like anyone could be on the show and we want it to be a safe place for everyone. And I mean,
Speaker 1 00:48:30 You and I have conversations off air about the FA I mean, we realized we’re just two white males. And if we do this show, or if we’re thinking about doing this show, uh, you know, maybe it’s not going to come across too. I mean, we’re aware of the situation, we’re self self-aware.
Speaker 2 00:48:43 And, and, and when, when someone tries to tell you that, like, maybe what you’re doing is wrong, it’s also, it’s also sucks to like, naturally you want to look back and go like, is it really, like, I feel like we’ve done all of these things, right? Like, we’ve, we’ve here are all the, like, it’s such a dumb thing to say, but it’s like, when someone, when someone calls you a racist and you’re, you’re like, everyone’s first natural inclination is to be like, here are all of my non-white friends. Like it’s sort of sucks to be put in a position to be like, your, maybe what you’re doing is wrong. And I think is very normal for your first line of defense to be like, well, here are all the ways that I feel like what I’m doing is fine and like to defend yourself. And I think that that’s like sort of a normal thing, but I don’t, I don’t think that we need to like, uh, um, I think we can, but I don’t, I don’t think that you need to, or that we should. But I do think that if to our listeners, they should tell us right. If what they want and what they, if, if, if, if what if it, if what they want is less of us and more of other people, then we should give that to them,
Speaker 1 00:49:56 Whatever, whatever happened to people laughing. I mean, it seems to me like, and I mentioned this on Twitter the other day, that I’m clear if there’s one career path, I’m glad I’m not in, it’s being a comedian. It’s trying to make people laugh. You know? And I, and I think, I think for comedians, there are certain people pop culture figures, subjects that are obvious that you should probably stay away from that. It’s really not joking material, but let’s say you’re, you’re a comedian and you want to create some new that’s out there. You want to try and differentiate yourself from other comedians. So maybe you, you go on that edgy, you stand the edge and you w you walk that line. And then, then you say something that you think is fine, or that’s funny, and you cross the line. And I think it’s, I think it’s really easy these days to cross that line.
Speaker 1 00:50:45 And it just seems like a lot of people would rather be upset and offended and angry and have pitchforks and just, just laugh and laughing is so therapeutic. I mean, I try to make people laugh all the time. I try to make myself laugh. I try to make you awkward, which makes me laugh. I mean, I just, it, it feels good when you laugh, especially when you have one of those laughs that almost make you cry. It feels wonderful. I mean, the, the, the endorphins and the other natural chemicals that are released in your body that make you feel good after a really good laugh, it’s just, it’s just amazing. And I, I, I wish that we could, that so many people would find their sense of humor. It wouldn’t be so on edge all the time. Just, it just seems like people, to me, their natural instinct is they want to be angry. They want to, to be upset.
Speaker 2 00:51:36 It does, it does suck. But I think so much of that comes down to, again, like your, where you are in your life and your ability. You’re like, like, uh, can you afford to laugh? I got like,
Speaker 1 00:51:52 You know, and it’s actually an excellent question like
Speaker 2 00:51:55 It. And so, like, this is where, uh, like I love standup comedy so much. Like I, uh, and I, like, I grew up watching like late night TV and late night comedy shows. And like, we all sort of grew up with, uh, like sitcom TV, and, uh, as comedies after school,
Speaker 1 00:52:16 Top 10 countdown
Speaker 2 00:52:18 And David Letterman and Johnny Carson, and like all, all of the oldies and everyone today, like the, the, the comedy is important, but they like as a standup comedian, mostly what you hear is a lot of what we hear about WordPress stuff is like, w we, we, there were, everyone was poor in the beginning. Uh, everyone was living on someone’s couch. They moved to, uh, to California, New York to, to, to crash, to try and make it big. And then they did, they had their moment, they got lucky or whatever it was, somebody discovered them. And now, boom, they’re there they go. And so, like a lot of us with WordPress stuff, maybe our listeners for, from before to now, maybe there are people starting now that, uh, are, are, are doing this as a side gig and a hustle. And they, their, their goal is to turn it into their, their main gig. And they’ve got, they’ve got very little, and this will be their stepping stone into changing their life. And it certainly was for me. Uh, but man, I love, like, I think
Speaker 1 00:53:22 After the conversation we had last week, about how it’s difficult for developers, it new and existing to get involved with WordPress. I don’t know if it’s, I don’t know if it is it’s,
Speaker 2 00:53:33 It’s just harder. It’s just it’s uh, but like the who you and I have talked about, gosh, there’s so many good times outward camps that were just hilarious that were just so funny that like it’s the, and I, and I, and I think that that comes from comfortability. It comes from being comfortable with people that you’ve known or that you trust or that trust you to like, be vulnerable and to be weird and to be in a place where you can control Z, if something goes wrong, like you can, you can undo a problem that you’re in together. Um, and it will be a funny story that you will share with people later on, like that’s how these relationships get made, but it, that will happen less and less, the more polarizing or the more oppressive that we are unintentionally to one another, but the more negative that I am, right? Like it turns people off what I’m just pointing at everything that’s wrong, uh, instead of helping make anything right. And so, uh, it’s,
Speaker 1 00:54:37 That’s wrong. I just want to play a sound bite of Merian, goody doing his Harry Carey personation. That’ll make you laugh. If he does such a funny Marion Gooding is Sarah Gooding’s, uh, husband. And a one time we went down to word camp Miami, and he was doing a Harry Carey impersonation in the car. And I swear if I didn’t know any better, John was this the giddiness little school girl I’ve ever heard of. He was just, so it would make
Speaker 2 00:55:04 Me laugh, laugh today areas. And, and it it’s because Marianne is just so funny, but it was like, it was so that guy’s a character. He is a character. And so there is, um, is that, um, Mel Blanc is like the, the voice of bugs bunny. And, uh, and he’s like, he’s like largely heralded as being like one of the best voice actors in history. And, and the example that I think that people use is like, he would have to do, he has his own voice. Right. But then he would have to do bugs Bunny’s voice. And then he would do, uh, Daffy Duck’s voice in, in impersonating bugs bunny. But then Daffy duck is dressed like a woman. And so it has like a female influxion on it. And so how do you layer all of these personalities and these traits on top of one another with an impersonation or with a voice?
Speaker 2 00:55:56 And so like, there are people like, I have a friend Ben, who’s a close personal friend here who can do that is just so talented. And it’s hilarious. And Marianne has the same sort of ability. It was just so fricking funny. Uh, and so like it, that, that’s what I, that’s why I am excited for in-person word camps again, is that, is that, and that’s what I, man, if I could, if I had a white whale of WordPress software and there are things I wish we could do with BB press and things, I wish that we would do eventually with buddy press. But my goal ultimately is I want the experience that we are talking about now that just rush of hilarity, uh, and just in a feeling of it being so fun and funny, but I want that on the internet. Like I want that with open source software that we build together that helps us communicate in a happy, fun, healthy kind of way. And like we have tried that with
Speaker 1 00:57:01 Some somewhere and just make it all good to make open source a good
Speaker 2 00:57:05 Time. I that’s that’s, that is what I want from all of it. And that’s why I’ve spent the majority of my career thinking about and studying and focusing on like the ways that we communicate and interact with one another online is just because I think that the on bridled joy of just giggling together with other people about something is so stupid. That is amazing is just the goal of all of it is like, that is why we do what we do. And we can talk about a work-life balance and we can talk about working from home and distributed companies and how great that they are, the free time that it gives you. And for four day work weeks and all this stuff. And like that, the reason we do all of that is so that we can, we can put it aside and hang out with one another and have a good time.
Speaker 2 00:57:56 Like if we’re not doing it because we want to have a good time. I don’t like I even the goal of like putting together a business, having, having, uh, a company of a hundred people or a thousand people like, yes, you have goals and there are things you want to achieve and things you want to build and problems you want to solve. And art, you want to put down and creativity that you want to put out. The goal in life of all of this is to just make it happy and fun and good. Uh, it’s very easy to lose track of that. And I think about it like every day. And so by the time that I have tweeted something negative about Gutenberg or something else, I have already gone through the like mental journey of like, man, I was just trying to have a good time and I’m like, be creative and have fun.
Speaker 2 00:58:51 And then, and then, yeah, and then like it, it got in the way, or it prevent. And like now I have to do work during a time where I was trying to have fun. And so it’s like, it’s those times that I personally struggle with like seeing the bright side on, or like getting pulled out of it would be the equivalent of, you know, that, that moment that we had in my word camp, Miami together, just cackling laughing everyone in the whole Plaza. I can just hear me geeking out that like someone comes in and goes, ah, you guys gotta to out, get out here. You gotta, you gotta shut it down. No more fun. You guys got your guys, your funds over funds over, and now you have to mop the floors. So stop laughing. Here’s a mop. You have to clean this up. It’s not even your mess. You’re gonna clean up other people’s messes as punishment for having fun. And like, what about the people who made the mess? Nope. We don’t know who they are. It doesn’t matter. They got off scot-free, you’re getting punished for something that they did
Speaker 1 00:59:51 And that, and then my candidate, then you can’t even use a map because there’s a J air.
Speaker 2 00:59:55 Yeah. There is, there is an error. There is the mop buckets leaking it’s full of chemicals. Like it it’s all toxic and terrible. And like the it’s difficult for me at that at that moment to be like, yeah, that was a good time. Let’s mop this floor. I just can’t. I have a hard time pulling, pulling myself up out of that. Uh, and so like, I, man, this is like this, this is like, this is like a top 10 episode for me. And we haven’t even had 10 episodes
Speaker 1 01:00:25 And we’ve already hit an hour, but I wanted to end it on a, on a more positive note. Well, I think we’ll be in positive , but, but anyways, um, so, so I actually I’m, I’m, uh, I’m a bit sleepy today. I actually stayed up till about 5:00 AM this morning. And, uh, but, uh, between four and 5:00 AM, I’ve been doing this now for the past couple of nights, but we’ve had some really clear skies. And during this time of the year, it’s so awesome because, uh, the S the summer nights and August sounds so much different than like a summer night in June or July, just because of the different bugs and things you can hear. But, but this morning I was standing outside and I was looking up and I saw about eight meteors. Two of them had very bright tails. I saw a bunch of space junk up in the sky, floating around.
Speaker 1 01:01:13 I heard some barred owls. I heard some crickets and the anxiety went away and I was just looking up and Hey, you know, it’s a, at night when you have a clear sky people, you know, I really encourage people to just look up, look up at the stars, look up at the, look up at the possibilities, look at the planets, look at Jupiter and just, you know, and just think, you know, and just put yourself out there. And, and, and I bring all this up because the next, next Friday, I think it’s the 12th or 13th is the annual proceed meteor shower. And it’s one of the best times of the year. It’s usually it’s, uh, between 15, 60 degrees out. Sometimes it’s warmer depending on where you’re at, but, you know, you can just lay back last year during COVID between three and 4:00 AM.
Speaker 1 01:01:59 We actually saw, I saw I was like a burst and man, if you’ve never seen a burst of meteors in the sky to something else, that is just a really cool experience. So I really encourage anybody out there. If you have, if you can, if you’re able to, or even if you need to do a short drive between the hours of one and five, uh, next Thursday, Friday and Saturday, if you can get outside, take a look up. Uh, they usually emanate from the point of, uh, proceed, uh, or Perseus the constellation, which is typically in the north Eastern part of the sky late at night. But if you just look up you’ll, you’ll see them all over the place, they don’t appear in a particular place in the best part of this year, as opposed to last year is that there’s no moon, the moon sets early in the night. So it’s just all just all night sky. And I was just thinking about that, that it’s just, I was just standing out there, breathing in the night air and listening to the things going on in the summer. My anxiety went away and just seeing those streaks of light go across the sky at it. It’s just a real positive, energetic time for me. And I think, and I’d like to encourage those who, uh, who are listening to the, to give it a shot.
Speaker 2 01:03:15 And I will second to that, Carrie and I went camping at rock island, Wisconsin a couple of weeks ago. And I mean, for you, you may not know this about me, Jeff, but, um, I really like being inside. I think it’s, uh, you know, we, uh, I, I like being in front of the computer. It’s where I feel creative, where I feel comfortable. Um, and whether or not that that’s healthy or its own coping mechanism, it’s sort of hard to say. Uh, but some friends of ours have had, uh, their families had a camp site on rock island for years and years and years. And so for about the past five years now, they have said, John Kerry, you guys, you have to come to rock island. We’re going to every July, you have to come. And like, most of the year I’m like, yeah, we’ll totally go next year.
Speaker 2 01:04:03 And then it starts to creep up and we’re like, ah, I don’t know about this. Cause you have to, uh, you can, you can, it’s two islands off the sort of thumb of the state of Wisconsin. And so you drive for us, which was a four and a half or five hour drive. And then you take a ferry to Washington island on your, in your car and you park your car and you take a second to fairy with all of your belongings to rock island, which has like no electricity. Uh, there’s like a, they have some solar powered stuff. So just for convenience sake, there’s one bathroom on the whole island. Uh, there’s some outhouses and pits that you can go in if you need to. But other than that, you are like camping. Like you are legit on an island where there was nothing, but what you brought with you.
Speaker 2 01:04:52 And, uh, and so we went to rock island this year. We went a couple of weeks ago and, uh, it was weird cause we didn’t have the dogs with us. And so that feels a little weird and lonely, but like, it was cool because, uh, we were with people, we trusted with friends and a big family and high energy, lots of kids running around and they were having a blast and good time we brought tons of food and at a campfire, did all the campfire stuff and then just were outside or in a tent for like three solid days straight. And like, uh, we’re going to go camping again because it was like, it was its own therapy, right? It was, you got to sit outside and look up at the stars and uh, whenever you want it to, and uh, the other, there were things that were not super great. There were snakes and bats and creatures, you know, that live on this island. We were like, oh, like, this is serious. We could probably die here. But, uh, we didn’t and it was fun. And it, like, we had good stories to tell from this camping trip and experience. And so like, uh, it’s like if, uh, I really do. I mean, I, hopefully our listeners can’t really tell, but like I’m, we’re
Speaker 1 01:06:09 Recording this highly encouraging people to just get outdoors. I’m outside right now.
Speaker 2 01:06:15 I’m in our garage with the doors open with a dump, set up a little bit of a breeze in the background. And uh, and like, if you want to feel good, just go outside. If you want to feel like a melancholy and maybe insignificant and hopeless, then I think you move your neck 45 degrees up on look at the sky. But, uh, you know,
Speaker 1 01:06:40 Is that how you feel when you look up and go, this sucks that there’s nobody else out there that we know of yet. Well,
Speaker 2 01:06:47 I, there, I, it, it kind of is. I’m saying like the show is, I mean, I’m not, I’m not really lonely, but I know. Well,
Speaker 1 01:06:54 I mean, I mean, I’ve played games like elite dangerous and there’s an awesome game on steam. It’s not really a game, but it’s kind of like a simulator called space engine, man. You want to talk about feeling lonely. You go into those games where it’s kind of like a simulation of our galaxy, every little point of light, it’s like a star or a galaxy or something. And we not even like the images from the Hubble space telescope, you’re like each little point of light is something it’s a planet, it’s a galaxy or whatever. And it’s like, it really does when you see all of that and then realize that no, so far the only thing we know is that we’re, we’re the only ones out here. Big. It can get pretty somber.
Speaker 2 01:07:37 Yeah. Yeah. It is. It, uh, looking up in the sky is like, the one is like the one thing that like, it, it almost instantly triggers for me. Like, not just like the mega mega mega mega phobia of like that. This is it, man. Like I’m I met my four point overs and I’m 44.2 I’m 42 years old. Maybe I’ll make it to attend 10.0 buddy, press 10 is about to come out soon. But, uh, maybe by 10 but 10th version of me is a hundred years old. I’m almost halfway, halfway through. I got a, I don’t have very much time to get done what it is I want to try and accomplish. So looking up in the sky is it very much like, makes me feel like, Ugh, this is so insignificant and none of this matters, but at the same time, like, it is very freeing where like, if none of this matters, I like, can I just unplug myself from this matrix?
Speaker 2 01:08:31 And like, come, come out clues somewhere else. Different like, like the same friend of ours that wanted us to go camping. Uh, we talk about it all the time. Almost every time I go and get a haircut, he’s like, man, I just wanna, I just want to be away for, I want to go live in the woods and just get away from tech and all of it. And just be like, just, just, just get, just abandon it, pull the cord and jump out of the plane and just be like, I’m done, I’m done I’m out. And uh, and so looking up in the sky is the thing that makes me very much feel like, oh, life is so weird. It’s all just so Brandom.
Speaker 1 01:09:08 I want to do, I just want to, I just want disconnect from tech. I want to grab my backpack, a walking stick, illegally, hop a train and just go train, hop in. Let’s go ride around in a country. Like
Speaker 2 01:09:20 You should do it. You should do your shit. Of course, I, I, this is the worst advice that anyone will ever give
Speaker 1 01:09:25 You, dude. I’m totally doing it. I’m so scared of trespassing, man. I just, I was so scared to hop on the board of train and do all that stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 2 01:09:33 You’re so nice. You could easily be like, hi, I’m Jeff. And like, have it work. I think I might get arrested, but,
Speaker 1 01:09:43 Well, I’ve watched so many tutorials on YouTube. I know which cars to ride, where to go hop up, catch out spots. I do. I put a padlock inside of a sock and I got a nice weapon. So that’s so, you know, I like that
Speaker 2 01:10:03 You instinctively already just went straight to defending yourself or, or maybe like, uh, yeah, I don’t let’s see. This is
Speaker 1 01:10:14 So, so, so what we’re going to do here, we’re gonna wrap this up. Um, and as far as what’s going on in the WordPress world, there’s some things that are going on. There’s always things going on, but there’s not really anything. That’s like, oh my God, you really should know about type of news. If there was, we would have told you about it. I will say that maybe keep an eye out of jet pack 10.0, I think was just recently released. And there are some people who are reporting that their settings or configurations for some of their widgets or plugins have just disappeared. Uh, that seems like a bad, a bad bug. And some people have reported it and they have confirmed that it has happened to some people. So keep an eye out for maybe a point release for jet pack, or maybe hold off on updating the, the 10 point, oh, if you can and wait till that to that’s fixed.
Speaker 1 01:11:04 Other than that, I mean, there, there’s a lengthy discussion that continues about how difficult or not it is for and existing developers to get involved with WordPress, to contribute to WordPress through Java script. And, uh, it’s been great to see that kind of conversation taking place finally on different blogs. You know, not just whatever, but people were actually like, it was like, oh my God, I have a blog. I can like write stuff here. That’s more than 240 characters and it doesn’t disappear, you know, after a short period of time. So it’s nice to see people getting involved again with blogs and linking to each other and checking my email. Hey, I got a truck back. How about that? It’s not spam. So that’s been nice to see.
Speaker 2 01:11:45 Cool. Yeah, definitely protocol on, on, on plugging our own stuff at the end of the show. Can, uh,
Speaker 1 01:11:54 Is that
Speaker 2 01:11:56 Allowed? Um, I would love it if, uh, if folks checked out sugar calendar and, uh, gave our advanced recurring, uh, add on a try since that was something I had been working on for the past, at least a year. Maybe a little bit. Yeah.
Speaker 1 01:12:13 Yeah. That’s something that was giving you headaches.
Speaker 2 01:12:17 It definitely was a, you want to talk about, you know, the, yeah, we
Speaker 1 01:12:23 Were talking about it on the after shows like last year when you’re working out and you’re like, man, this is office with like, what was it like recurring or dealing with dates or numbers. It’s like, ah, this is what we’re going to have to reinvent it.
Speaker 2 01:12:38 It was definitely a weird, um, but we can talk about it in a different episode, different day, but that just plug the plug sugar calendar and the advanced occurring add on, uh, it was a lot of work. It works really great. It’s really, it’s really fricking cool actually. And, uh, and it, it it’s cool in a way. It shouldn’t be because it’s just a calendar and it’s just recurring events, but, uh, it works super well. And then, uh, I would like to leave our listeners if I can, with a question and, and, and a thought and a poll polling, our audience, which is I have a plugin that I really like a lot that, uh, I have wanted to monetize for a long time. And haven’t, uh, and so the DWP user profiles, plugin, uh, is like, sort of all the things that buddy press couldn’t be.
Speaker 2 01:13:43 And, uh, all of the things that we couldn’t do on wordpress.com when I was there. And some of the things that, uh, I think that sort of WordPress needs when it comes to the user profile screen. And, uh, like we talked about it at the beginning of the show, or even in the pre show is like, I really think it’s good. I think it’s got potential. I think it has a future, but I think the only way to get there is probably to sell ad-ons or to have there be some kind of way to, to build it up and build a team behind it. And, uh, and I’m learning, uh, how to do that in the way that everyone has already learned how to do it far, far before me. And so if folks wanted to check it out, it’s always been on wordpress.org for free. Um, I’ll probably buy a domain name. I’ll probably try to do something with it, but I’m curious, uh, what folks would want from it, or if they think that it’s a good idea, or if there’s a need, or if there, if, if this is a product that would be worth bringing to the WordPress market for real, actually I have something to plug our
Speaker 1 01:14:58 WP mainline. I opened up subscriptions onto the website. So if you visit WP mainline.com, click on the subscribe link, you can choose between, uh, the real fan level and the real belt level only difference between the two is price. And how much of a financial contribution you want to make to the site right now is, uh, not going to get any extra content or anything like that. We’ll just, we’re going to be in a simple relationship. You give me money and I make content that’s, uh, that’s how it works. I’m going to say a special shout out and thank you to everyone out there who has subscribed to the site because of you. I’m able to pay off a couple bills. You know, I got a few less people calling me wanting their money, so that’s been pretty nice. And, um, yeah, you know, if, if you really, if you like enjoy the show and you want me to keep going and you want to contribute to me being able to pay my bills and keep the train rolling, you know, feel free to subscribe.
Speaker 1 01:15:55 You know, I’d really appreciate it. Um, every little bit helps. So check it out. WP mainline.com. And as you’re viewing show notes for this episode, you can like click the subscribe link in another tab and just like go through the process, give me some money. It’d be nice. So, uh, that’d be nice. Nice for me. So that’s going to do it for this episode of the podcast. You can find the show notes for this episode and all other episodes on WP mainline that com and you can follow me on Twitter at Jeffery J E F F R zero. And John,
Speaker 2 01:16:29 Uh, you could check out sugar calendar, uh, sugar calendar.com. You could check out the WP user profiles plugin just by searching the plug-in repository for WP user profiles. It’s also on GitHub and I’ve got my own GitLab where I have a branch and stuff too, but you can follow me, uh, at JJ on, uh, Twitter or get hub or, um, you know, jj.blog where every episode, I feel like I try to remind myself to blog more. And then I don’t. So, um, maybe, maybe this week I will.
Speaker 1 01:17:02 Yeah, maybe this week, maybe next week, maybe the week after maybe we have to go camping maybe three years after that. I don’t, but, uh, all right, everybody enjoy have a safe, enjoyable weekend. We’ll talk again next week. Everybody say, bye John. Bye John.